leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

PCB problems and fixes
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Rossyra
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Rossyra » March 17th, 2013, 12:41 pm

Identifiers for a conversion, fair enough.

For a community project to preserve original hardware, I don't see the point. The difference between suicide/non-suicide is widely known and the information is freely available within the community.
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by SuperPang » March 17th, 2013, 12:45 pm

That's true but I wouldn't bet against the odd ebay noob selling unawares. A bonus to some but not collectors. Add to that the possibility of bugs that haven't been ironed out.

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Rossyra » March 17th, 2013, 12:55 pm

I can see how this wouldn't be of use to a collector, but then neither would the phoenix version in that respect.

You have to assume by definition a collector would not be caught out by this.
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by CPS2 » March 17th, 2013, 12:57 pm

No battery=bootleg, simples.

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by leonardoliveira » March 17th, 2013, 2:26 pm

CPS2 wrote:No battery=bootleg, simples.
Exactly why I started sharing what started as a project for my own entertainment and learning.

Here where it all started:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... -bored-and

To think the game which started it all was Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter ...
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Spectre » March 17th, 2013, 4:36 pm

SuperPang wrote:I must admit that I do agree with Raz that all hacked hardware should have some way of identifying it as such on boot. The only reason not to do that is because you want to pretend to someone that it's legit. Even if that someone is yourself, it's asking for trouble when you sell it.
Have to respectfully disagree here. There are several platforms with suicide batteries out there, many of them have work-arounds to revive dead hardware and none of those employ splash screens, other than Razoola's phoenix edition CPS2 fixes. I've never seen this issue debated for any of those other platforms.

There are lots of ways to identify modified hardware without the need for a splash screen, so why add one. If someone wants to misrepresent what they are selling or defraud others, they're going to do it anyway. I don't feel this is a question of pretending something is "legit", we're fans of original hardware and we want to keep our original hardware working for as long as possible, as close to how it did out of the factory as possible.

I also think it is ridiculous to label these kind of modifications as "bootleg". Bypassing a security system which will eventually kill your hardware does imho not make something a bootleg. Hell I wouldn't even class a conversion as a bootleg, it's running on original hardware after all.

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by dbstallman » March 17th, 2013, 6:07 pm

Spectre wrote:Have to respectfully disagree here. There are several platforms with suicide batteries out there, many of them have work-arounds to revive dead hardware and none of those employ splash screens, other than Razoola's phoenix edition CPS2 fixes. I've never seen this issue debated for any of those other platforms.

There are lots of ways to identify modified hardware without the need for a splash screen, so why add one. If someone wants to misrepresent what they are selling or defraud others, they're going to do it anyway. I don't feel this is a question of pretending something is "legit", we're fans of original hardware and we want to keep our original hardware working for as long as possible, as close to how it did out of the factory as possible.

I also think it is ridiculous to label these kind of modifications as "bootleg". Bypassing a security system which will eventually kill your hardware does imho not make something a bootleg. Hell I wouldn't even class a conversion as a bootleg, it's running on original hardware after all.
I agree 100%. CPS-1/CPS-1.5 boards modified to be battery free are never consider "bootleg". It has been my experience that a board that has been fixed (ie. Punisher, Warriors of Fate, Saturday Night Slammasters, etc.) are more valuable than their battery powered counterparts.

The same is true of the decrypted Sega sets for System 16/18. There is no (that I am aware of) high demand for a Golden Axe with still working FD-1094.... (segaressurrection fixes, bah! Mine is still original!).

Conversions are just that, conversions. Certainly less valuable than an original board but absolutely not a bootleg. If you play a conversion Ghouls 'n Ghosts or Progear you will not be able to discern any difference from an original. It can only be identified by looking at the board.

Brian.

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by cools » March 17th, 2013, 6:52 pm

Why not update the revision number? Easily identifiable, unobtrusive.
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by leonardoliveira » March 17th, 2013, 6:59 pm

cools wrote:Why not update the revision number? Easily identifiable, unobtrusive.
That's one thing I won't do, ever. :shifty:

The point was make them be original. Worried about scams ? Open the case and read the chip.

Leave the battery in on your own risk. Like it was posted on the CPS3 related posts, the battery can leak and do massive damage to the board. I doubt anyone would want to keep a battery which it useless and can even corrode the board down in the event of a failure.

Edit: And I don't understand what make the encrypted ones more valuable than the decrypted ones. The encrypted ones can die if you drop, if you zap it with wrong voltage, if you wet it, if you don't replace the battery before it runs dry, if you look at it with a angry face ... :lolno:

You have to break the seals to replace the darndest battery anyway, anyhow. If anything would make a board valuable would be it's casing seals being intact. Now that's something I would understand. But does dead games have increased value for being un-opened ? I don't think so ... :lol:
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Shou » March 18th, 2013, 3:00 am

I agree with what many said before, there are several platforms with suicide batteries and in no other platform, do you see this kind of drama over decrypted ROMs and bootlegs. Bootleggers will try to sell their wares no matter what you do or do not put on whatever screen. As a collector with over 1000 boards in my collection, I absolutely advocate having a clean decrypted ROM set openly available to all. Some of the features Raz has put into his sets are nice but I rather have the same game as a battery board in all of the different regions (ie Powered Gear for Japan, where is it? lol).

In Japan, any game that has been modified in anyway and does not have the original factory EPROM seals on them is considered a bootleg. They don't buy back Phoenix'ed CPS2 games or resurrected System 16/18 games because they aren't original. Obviously, these stores are on their last legs because there aren't many new releases coming out and not much stock floating around especially with the suicide games (I know some stores who have stopped buying back CPS2/3 because of high failure rate) On the flip side, I know many Japanese arcade collectors who actively resurrect games and have no issues with them.

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Razoola » March 18th, 2013, 5:06 pm

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthrea ... ost3506387"

Just a post to show these fixes are not as fully working, original or clean as made out. I have no problem with other people making fixes anyway they wish but don't go altering other peoples effort and try and pass it off as your own.

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Rossyra » March 18th, 2013, 6:19 pm

I dunno man I'm not a code monkey, but maybe there is only one solution to the

Code: Select all

 problems you describe.

I'm sure this community (and maybe this project??) would/could greatly benefit from your input. I assume that's why you joined the forum, right? 

So welcome aboard.  :awe:
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Monstermug » March 18th, 2013, 6:40 pm

CPS2 wrote:No battery=bootleg, simples.
You can easily install a new battery on a clean decrypted rom board and pass it on as original. Who will take out the battery to test if it is not?

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Rossyra » March 18th, 2013, 6:56 pm

Monstermug wrote:
CPS2 wrote:No battery=bootleg, simples.
You can easily install a new battery on a clean decrypted rom board and pass it on as original. Who will take out the battery to test if it is not?
What a great idea, you could buy desuicided games, stick a battery on and then ... wait, there's no money to be made whatsoever selling CPS2 games. :problem:
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Razoola » March 18th, 2013, 7:18 pm

I joined because I wanted to address the notion that these CPS-2 fixes are fully working and clean compared to my phoenix fixes as an example as not clean. Then I discovered at least some of their fixes are actually modded phoenix fixes and that they are not clean fixes either. They have been directly modded not to run as the original I took was the whole purpose of these fixes in the first place.

There are many problems with the fixes I have looked at which are not based on phoenix edition fixes due to incorrect decryption. I though it was important people know this because your going to end up with a CPS2 game that does not play correctly due to incorrect decryption on top of not having a untouched game anyway.

With the phoenix fixes you can be 100% sure of a fully 100% working game (providing you don't change region), 100% playable in the same way as the original. You just have to live with the phoenix edition screen. Its no different than Capcoms own region screen to show different versions of the game.

I have explained many times in the past why the phoenix edition logo is displayed on screen. Its something I believe strongly should be there given its a mod to the game. So the choice is either the phoenix edition fix for a 100% good game or a fix without the logo for a 95% working game. If not that then a dead CPS2 'b' board which is no good to anyone until reloading of key data is done (which may not be so far off btw).

About passing off desuicided games as original no suicicded games....

There is people making money at the expense of collectors. I have seen it first hand when people think its simply a case of their original game suiciding. They are not happy to discover that the game was infact already suicided

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by leonardoliveira » March 18th, 2013, 7:21 pm

Razoola wrote:http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthrea ... ost3506387

Just a post to show these fixes are not as fully working, original or clean as made out. I have no problem with other people making fixes anyway they wish but don't go altering other peoples effort and try and pass it off as your own.

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My only crime was copy the patching you did on your own ROM thinking it was something else. I did disassemble the whole game by hand on IDA because I was curious if there were any mistakes. (not that I am saying you would commit any). I didn't scrutinize what each routine did though. Neither I bothered putting labels on them as it was just to make the reference of what was data and what was code.

I DON'T have a rigged emulator that logs what is code what is data. I put the blob of decrypted CODE with garbage DATA in IDA and go disassembling it manually.

Once I get to DATA sections I manually transplant them from the encrypted ROM to the decrypted ROM in the hex editor.
I did not steal anything from you. I just went lazy on the patches.
Last edited by leonardoliveira on August 11th, 2013, 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by Rossyra » March 18th, 2013, 7:42 pm

Razoola wrote:There is people making money at the expense of collectors. I have seen it first hand when people think its simply a case of their original game suiciding. They are not happy to discover that the game was infact already suicided
There are less than 10 negative feedback users on this forum and maybe 2-3 at most of those have been scammers, out of the thousands of trades that have taken place.

Where are all these people waiting in the wings for no-phoenix hacks to flood the market with CPS2 carts hardly anyone is buying anyway? (unless at rock-bottom prices).

Sure you do get them, but as has been said already, scammers gonna scam.
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by idc » March 18th, 2013, 8:01 pm

Yes, feel free to take a look at Leo's fixes for the Mitchell games for which Razoola (to my knowledge) has not done Phoenix Editions. Draw your own conclusions from that. We have indeed learned from Razoola, he did some phenomenal work. We have not set out to copy or upset him, by any stretch of the imagination.

Bear in mind that the binaries must be altered for the games to run on dead boards. "Clean" decrypted ROMs in the literal sense would not run. In many cases, the patches required would be similar, or even identical, to those found in Razoola's ROMs, simply because there is only one way of doing it.

There is no pressure for anyone to choose our sets over Razoola's. If you want to use Razoola's, which are 100% working by his own reckoning (and we have no reason to doubt him) - and you are happy to pay for them - then go right ahead. We have nothing bad to say about Razoola's Phoenix Edition ROMs.

If you want to use ours, which may have a few errors that we'll do out best to put right - free of charge - then again, go right ahead. That's why we put the request for bug reports there, in the hope that others will want to help quash any errors.

The download site we have at present was produced very hastily. In the future, we plan to put some kind of basic version control in place.

In the mean time, please continue to test as you see fit and report any errors.
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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by jepjepjep » March 18th, 2013, 10:51 pm

SuperPang wrote:I must admit that I do agree with Raz that all hacked hardware should have some way of identifying it as such on boot. The only reason not to do that is because you want to pretend to someone that it's legit. Even if that someone is yourself, it's asking for trouble when you sell it.
I disagree with this. I would prefer to have suicide ressurection be as close to factory as possible without any extra changes or features. Look at CPS1.5: A suicide resurrected Punisher or Cadillacs doesn't seem to have any of these issues and they are more expensive than most CPS2. You never see "fake" lithium batteries added on these boards to trick collectors; I don't think there's any financial motivation to do so.

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Re: leonardoliveira & Idc's clean decrypted roms

Post by cools » March 19th, 2013, 9:51 am

Aren't Punisher and Dino pretty much impossible to convert from another game without it being completely obvious?
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