exA-Arcadia

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SuperPang
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by SuperPang » February 7th, 2020, 12:34 pm

EOJ wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 1:54 am
Sorry for the off topic
Not at all.

Nice to hear Shou clear a few things up on the subject because it does evidently matter to a lot of people.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem » February 7th, 2020, 2:15 pm

Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 1:24 am
Cabinet monitors, JVS IO boards and each individual game play a factor in the end experience. Optimizing for each piece will give the best experience.

We benchmark on every major modern Japanese cabinet type using M2’s lag calculating setup and will not ship a game that is beyond 4 frames of lag. Our hardware is capable of 2 frames of input lag just like double buffered JAMMA PCBs of the past. Games like Strania EX and Gimmick have already proven that.
A game like Battle Garegga has 4 frames of lag on the original PCB but no Yagawa fan is going to say that is trash because the game is implemented around that so lag isn’t the be all end all in every case.

Monitors and IO boards I can understand, but how I do as the end user optimize the individual game?

Anyway, while Battle Garegga is by no means the gold standard when it comes to input lag, I would love to have A&B atleast perform at that level. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing that here.

Because I remembered you mentioning the fastest JVS IOs at some point, I went through a ton of posts on here and on Shmups. I finally found the post here. However, even armed with a Sega JVS Type 3 and a CRT we're still getting 5 frames. So naturally, I wrote to your support. I would have been perfectly happy with a reply from your support mentioning that the exA is more than capable of hitting two frame responses, and you're talking with Tanoshimasu to try to get A&B performing at that level, and in the mean time, here's the hardware to get the best performance out of the game: [hardware]. But nope. Instead I, in my opinion, got a somewhat condescending reply about how "there is no issue with input lag on our hardware" and how it has been "verified by dozens of Japanese top players who have 1cc’ed this game with no issues".

I don't know, maybe I'm thin skinned, but I read this as you downplaying both my players and the hardware we paired up with the exA. For the record, Zaarock, the only one who decided to stick with the game, lag and all, currently has 18 billion in the game and is well on his way to being the first person to clear the game outside Japan. He really likes the game, but I'm sure he'll be the first to mention the lag affecting the more difficult bullet patterns. As for the hardware, I specifically bought a Vewlix F from Japan because I remember you saying the original Sanwa monitor performs better than any Diamond one you've tested (again, found here), and bought the very latest JVS IO from Taito (which I think they've only been manufacturing for a few months). And just to be mega-sure of everything, we contacted one of the Japanese players that has 1CC'd the game and he agreed that the game doesn't feel as snappy as something like a Cave game and totally got us when we compared it to the lackluster 360 ports.

It's a really cool game, and high-level play looks amazing (would love to stream this on Twitch). I just want to see it perform as good as it can. If I spoke Japanese, I would write to Tanoshimasu. But I don't, and I have a really hard time believing they would give me a second of their time if I wrote to them in English about input lag (honestly, I'm pretty sure they give **** all about the western market).

EDIT: clarification
Last edited by nem on February 7th, 2020, 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by cools » February 7th, 2020, 3:24 pm

FWIW I find the lag on the Raizing titles almost intolerable, it takes a long time to get comfortable with it.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by markedkiller78 » February 7th, 2020, 5:52 pm

Edits: ignore, it’s stated above BG is 4 frames

What’s rizing, 4 frames?
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by ArcadeSTG » February 7th, 2020, 6:03 pm

Input lag is really a thing.

There are a lot of numbers here and there, but it is also quite common to find flaws that prevent people from making fair comparisons:
picture-based measurements, do not removing protective glass of Vewlixes, mix up 720 and 768 resolutions...
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Jan » February 7th, 2020, 6:26 pm

why exactly is this a big topic again ? anyone noticed any actual Input lag ? :penser:
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem » February 7th, 2020, 6:47 pm

On this forum? Probably not.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Jan » February 7th, 2020, 6:55 pm

No, I mean in general.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by geotrig » February 7th, 2020, 6:56 pm

I've more issues with the lag between my brain and hand than in any game :awe: :lol: :problem:
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by zak » February 7th, 2020, 7:23 pm

geotrig wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 6:56 MP
I've more issues with the lag between my brain and hand than in any game :awe: :lol: :problem:
:lol: :pointup:

Gets worse with age. I need to get all my 1CCs out of the way in the next 5 years.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem » February 7th, 2020, 7:56 pm


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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by monouchi » February 7th, 2020, 8:31 pm

zak wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 7:23 MP
Gets worse with age. I need to get all my 1CCs out of the way in the next 5 years.
This. :awe:

BG took some time to get used to but the SDOJ 360 port just feel sluggish.
Hope Tanoshimasu can shave off some frames.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by ArcadeSTG » February 7th, 2020, 8:43 pm

I was going to give some colour to the topic with this image:

Image

Crimzon Clover next to Aka to blue... but that's not CC :lolno:
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Shou » February 7th, 2020, 10:44 pm

nem wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 2:15 MP
Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 1:24 am
Cabinet monitors, JVS IO boards and each individual game play a factor in the end experience. Optimizing for each piece will give the best experience.

We benchmark on every major modern Japanese cabinet type using M2’s lag calculating setup and will not ship a game that is beyond 4 frames of lag. Our hardware is capable of 2 frames of input lag just like double buffered JAMMA PCBs of the past. Games like Strania EX and Gimmick have already proven that.
A game like Battle Garegga has 4 frames of lag on the original PCB but no Yagawa fan is going to say that is trash because the game is implemented around that so lag isn’t the be all end all in every case.

Monitors and IO boards I can understand, but how I do as the end user optimize the individual game?

Anyway, while Battle Garegga is by no means the gold standard when it comes to input lag, I would love to have A&B atleast perform at that level. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing that here.

Because I remembered you mentioning the fastest JVS IOs at some point, I went through a ton of posts on here and on Shmups. I finally found the post here. However, even armed with a Sega JVS Type 3 and a CRT we're still getting 5 frames. So naturally, I wrote to your support. I would have been perfectly happy with a reply from your support mentioning that the exA is more than capable of hitting two frame responses, and you're talking with Tanoshimasu to try to get A&B performing at that level, and in the mean time, here's the hardware to get the best performance out of the game: [hardware]. But nope. Instead I, in my opinion, got a somewhat condescending reply about how "there is no issue with input lag on our hardware" and how it has been "verified by dozens of Japanese top players who have 1cc’ed this game with no issues".

I don't know, maybe I'm thin skinned, but I read this as you downplaying both my players and the hardware we paired up with the exA. For the record, Zaarock, the only one who decided to stick with the game, lag and all, currently has 18 billion in the game and is well on his way to being the first person to clear the game outside Japan. He really likes the game, but I'm sure he'll be the first to mention the lag affecting the more difficult bullet patterns. As for the hardware, I specifically bought a Vewlix F from Japan because I remember you saying the original Sanwa monitor performs better than any Diamond one you've tested (again, found here), and bought the very latest JVS IO from Taito (which I think they've only been manufacturing for a few months). And just to be mega-sure of everything, we contacted one of the Japanese players that has 1CC'd the game and he agreed that the game doesn't feel as snappy as something like a Cave game and totally got us when we compared it to the lackluster 360 ports.

It's a really cool game, and high-level play looks amazing (would love to stream this on Twitch). I just want to see it perform as good as it can. If I spoke Japanese, I would write to Tanoshimasu. But I don't, and I have a really hard time believing they would give me a second of their time if I wrote to them in English about input lag (honestly, I'm pretty sure they give **** all about the western market).

EDIT: clarification
You and your customers are very much entitled to their opinion on the game. In fact, we passed your comments onto Tanoshimasu but as we only produce the platform and can only give you support on that or anything of a hardware nature.
If you would like to complain about input lag in our hardware IO test menu, we are happy to take that on. For individual games, please contact the creators directly.

Please let me know if I have this wrong but the view from your customers are that if it input lag was like a CV1000 Cave game (2 frames) it would be better in their opinion.
Each player should send that feedback directly to Tanoshimasu. They do read all feedback even in English. As a result of your comments, we are having a discussion today with Tanoshimasu on this topic.

Allow me to summarize the facts and data points for this game, hardware and JVS in general.
1. We benchmark input and display lag on our control hardware which is a fully stock Vewlix C using M2's methodology and hardware.
2. The exA-Arcadia hardware is capable of 2 frames of input lag which is the same as many JAMMA PCBs.
3. Aka & Blue Type-R is performing the same as Battle Garegga on an original PCB, the game has been designed in this manner.
4. The stock Vewlix Diamond has a worse performing monitor than the Vewlix C but the Vewlix Diamond Black (black and orange variants) has performed the best for the Vewlix line which is reflected on our list.
5. JVS IO boards have different performance factors: response and data processing time are big factors. The early Sega IOs may respond in 3ms but actually cannot process JVS commands fast enough which leads to performance degradation.
6. JVS is using USB cabling but is not USB in performance which impacts data transfer speeds to the IO board and may cause the IO board to need to request information again leading to performance degradation.
7. Aka & Blue Type-R has officially outperformed Nesica 1/2, All Net (APM) and Street Fighter V in revenue as reported independently by Amusement Journal in Japan.
8. exA-Arcadia has not issued any kind of media ban or DMCA takedown request.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Cagar » February 8th, 2020, 12:45 am

nem wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 2:15 MP
I don't know, maybe I'm thin skinned
No you're not. I've been following this whole thing from the side (also discussing with Zaarock), and it frustrates me heavily and I truly feel sorry for you to have to deal with this absolute joke of a customer service. Tons of respect for still keeping going and trying to minimize & figure the lag out.

Shou and exA in general, you really need to get off the high horse. I don't know nor care about your actual relationship with Tanoshimasu, but from what I've heard and read it seems like you're constantly trying to downplay the issue of the (completely inexcusably bad) input lag and try to make it look like just some 'needy customers whining' It's a sure fire way to only make the matters worse, and I argue, an attitude that works as a slippery slope to stagnation in whatever you're doing. I know because I partly work as video-game customer service myself.
Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 10:44 MP
You and your customers are very much entitled to their opinion on the game.
Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 10:44 MP
Please let me know if I have this wrong but the view from your customers are that if it input lag was like a CV1000 Cave game (2 frames) it would be better in their opinion.
Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 10:44 MP
7. Aka & Blue Type-R has officially outperformed Nesica 1/2, All Net (APM) and Street Fighter V in revenue as reported independently by Amusement Journal in Japan.
Please take a moment to examine yourself and think about why you felt the need to type these three remarks out.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by kazuo » February 8th, 2020, 4:46 am

nem wrote:
January 31st, 2020, 2:57 MP
zak wrote:
January 31st, 2020, 11:43 am
How do you guys measure lag? :think:
It's not super scientific. Basically you take high frame rate camera and you point it towards the cab so that it shows both the controls and the screen. Then you go to the input test and press a button. Then you take that footage, punch it into a video player and start counting frames from when you press the button to the game actually reacting to it. A slightly more refined approach is if you can rig up a LED to the button that lights up on presses.
Also worth noting you can (relatively) objectively measure display lag by using a device like the Time Sleuth:

https://shop.dansprojects.com/time-sleu ... ester.html

Might be interesting to independently verify EXA's findings using one of these, but hell if I know where you're going to find someone with that variety of cabs just laying around...

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by pubjoe » February 8th, 2020, 8:34 am

Cagar wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 12:45 am
No you're not. I've been following this whole thing from the side (also discussing with Zaarock), and it frustrates me heavily and I truly feel sorry for you to have to deal with this absolute joke of a customer service.
Why? Seemed like a very reasonable reply. The hardware causes two frames and the rest comes from software. Shou didn’t make the game but he’s forwarding feedback on. That might not be satisfying but what else would you want?

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem » February 8th, 2020, 9:20 am

The thing is, we're not seeing two frames. We're seeing four. According to Shou A&B should be 3-4 frames on a Vewlix F, we have it showing 6 on a cab that should be identical. We have ruled out everything on our side, we've connected it to a CRT and tried four different model JVS IOs, one of which is the second fastest JVS IO the exA team has tested (0.5ms slower than a Noir IO). It's time to stop guessing what's wrong with our setup and start thinking what's wrong with the exA unit we have. I have reached out to Shou directly about this.

kazuo wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 4:46 am
Also worth noting you can (relatively) objectively measure display lag by using a device like the Time Sleuth:

Might be interesting to independently verify EXA's findings using one of these, but hell if I know where you're going to find someone with that variety of cabs just laying around...

The Vewlix stock monitors have all been lag measured independently on the Arcade-Projects forum with a Leo Bodnar Video Signal Lag Tester. Anyway, display lag doesn't really play in to our issue. We've already ruled that out by going CRT.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Shou » February 8th, 2020, 9:38 am

I think you’re confused in that we developed the game?

Sending complaints to us about a game we did not develop is equal to complaining to Microsoft about the lag in a Cave 360 port.

We do not make the game.
You have an issue with the game.
Send your issue to the company who makes the game which is Tanoshimasu.

Cagar wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 12:45 am
Shou and exA in general, you really need to get off the high horse. I don't know nor care about your actual relationship with Tanoshimasu, but from what I've heard and read it seems like you're constantly trying to downplay the issue of the (completely inexcusably bad) input lag and try to make it look like just some 'needy customers whining' It's a sure fire way to only make the matters worse, and I argue, an attitude that works as a slippery slope to stagnation in whatever you're doing. I know because I partly work as video-game customer service myself.
Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 10:44 MP
You and your customers are very much entitled to their opinion on the game.
Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 10:44 MP
Please let me know if I have this wrong but the view from your customers are that if it input lag was like a CV1000 Cave game (2 frames) it would be better in their opinion.
Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 10:44 MP
7. Aka & Blue Type-R has officially outperformed Nesica 1/2, All Net (APM) and Street Fighter V in revenue as reported independently by Amusement Journal in Japan.
Please take a moment to examine yourself and think about why you felt the need to type these three remarks out.
Last edited by Shou on February 8th, 2020, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem » February 8th, 2020, 10:04 am

Shou wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 9:38 am
Sending complaints to us about a game we did not develop is equal to complaining to Microsoft about the lag in a Cave port.
If Microsoft said a Cave port had two frames of lag on their hardware, then yes, I have a reason to complain to them.

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