Cave's weakest title?

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Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Medal »

Donpachi, Guwange, or Deathsmiles. I like Esprade, and it's pretty low down there, but even the boss leeching in that game doesn't compare to Guwange's. Deathsmiles is horribly paced. It's no fun until the sometime in the Castle, and then the game's already over, anyway. The scoring is boring and stuff. Donpachi's stage design and scoring mechanics are far below any of the later games. Stage 4 was put together by a crack junkie or something, no idea what was going on there.

I keep seeing Dangun Feveron in this thread, why is that :< Nobody seems to give a reason, just that the theme sucks (I think I saw one mention of the lame scoring or something, which I can understand, but is a matter of opinion). Dangun Feveron is the best-looking CAVE game, in my opinion. Amazing art, awesome backgrounds, great visual theme. The huge, multi-sprite bosses are a real treat. It's really well-designed, too :< The scoring mechanic is great and flexible, the bosses are meant to be speedkilled, not leeched, several ship types with immensely varying playstyles, etc.
Someone showed me something that was embedded in the game's code that really leads us to believe the coder was heavily under the influence of drugs, though. A paragraph or two of complete insanity, written in English, that I could only see coming from the mind of someone tripping on something. I don't have a link to it anymore, but maybe I'll find it some day.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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Medal wrote:Donpachi, Guwange, or Deathsmiles. I like Esprade, and it's pretty low down there, but even the boss leeching in that game doesn't compare to Guwange's. Deathsmiles is horribly paced. It's no fun until the sometime in the Castle, and then the game's already over, anyway. The scoring is boring and stuff. Donpachi's stage design and scoring mechanics are far below any of the later games. Stage 4 was put together by a crack junkie or something, no idea what was going on there.

I keep seeing Dangun Feveron in this thread, why is that :< Nobody seems to give a reason, just that the theme sucks (I think I saw one mention of the lame scoring or something, which I can understand, but is a matter of opinion). Dangun Feveron is the best-looking CAVE game, in my opinion. Amazing art, awesome backgrounds, great visual theme. The huge, multi-sprite bosses are a real treat. It's really well-designed, too :< The scoring mechanic is great and flexible, the bosses are meant to be speedkilled, not leeched, several ship types with immensely varying playstyles, etc.
Someone showed me something that was embedded in the game's code that really leads us to believe the coder was heavily under the influence of drugs, though. A paragraph or two of complete insanity, written in English, that I could only see coming from the mind of someone tripping on something. I don't have a link to it anymore, but maybe I'll find it some day.
Find that link, I'd love to see that. :D
I want to get more into Dangun but the only thing that puts me off is that the stupid cat has the highest scoring potential but I hate using it. It's too fast and incredibly irritating.
Not sure I agree entirely with Donpachi crit, but I do think the stage 4 design is off the wall (crazy long stage!). The scoring etc is a bit rudimentary but I like it's old-schoolness.

I'm 100% in agreement with Deathsmiles though, I've been unable to figure out the furore around that game - seemed like a step backward for the company to me. It's slow, unbalanced between the 3 difficulty stages and scoring is a frustrating task of trying to nail the 'crown reload'. Ice Palace is so much more fun that all the other stages in the game, I've no idea why the whole thing (or at least DS2) isn't like it.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by calium »

DS and DS2 are weak titles? :palm:

i would love a third DS aswell but it will probably never happen.

i vote guwange and dungan feveron as weakest titles
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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calium wrote:DS and DS2 are weak titles? :palm:
Weaker imo, yes. :D
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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skykid wrote:
Medal wrote:Donpachi, Guwange, or Deathsmiles. I like Esprade, and it's pretty low down there, but even the boss leeching in that game doesn't compare to Guwange's. Deathsmiles is horribly paced. It's no fun until the sometime in the Castle, and then the game's already over, anyway. The scoring is boring and stuff. Donpachi's stage design and scoring mechanics are far below any of the later games. Stage 4 was put together by a crack junkie or something, no idea what was going on there.

I keep seeing Dangun Feveron in this thread, why is that :< Nobody seems to give a reason, just that the theme sucks (I think I saw one mention of the lame scoring or something, which I can understand, but is a matter of opinion). Dangun Feveron is the best-looking CAVE game, in my opinion. Amazing art, awesome backgrounds, great visual theme. The huge, multi-sprite bosses are a real treat. It's really well-designed, too :< The scoring mechanic is great and flexible, the bosses are meant to be speedkilled, not leeched, several ship types with immensely varying playstyles, etc.
Someone showed me something that was embedded in the game's code that really leads us to believe the coder was heavily under the influence of drugs, though. A paragraph or two of complete insanity, written in English, that I could only see coming from the mind of someone tripping on something. I don't have a link to it anymore, but maybe I'll find it some day.
Find that link, I'd love to see that. :D
I want to get more into Dangun but the only thing that puts me off is that the stupid cat has the highest scoring potential but I hate using it. It's too fast and incredibly irritating.
Not sure I agree entirely with Donpachi crit, but I do think the stage 4 design is off the wall (crazy long stage!). The scoring etc is a bit rudimentary but I like it's old-schoolness.

I'm 100% in agreement with Deathsmiles though, I've been unable to figure out the furore around that game - seemed like a step backward for the company to me. It's slow, unbalanced between the 3 difficulty stages and scoring is a frustrating task of trying to nail the 'crown reload'. Ice Palace is so much more fun that all the other stages in the game, I've no idea why the whole thing (or at least DS2) isn't like it.
Well, keep in mind that the score ceiling for the cat is only about 1M more than for the regular ships. It's really not a huge advantage. Apart from the fact that it's always at 100% power, the cat is actually balanced. No bombs and it moves ridiculously fast, which makes things like the St4 boss really hard to dodge. I recommend trying C-Roll, B-Bomb, B-Roll, etc. if you want to get into Dangun. I'm actually more frustrated by the difference between Type A and Type B in DOJ/DOJBL than I am in Dangun. Once you learn HFD's paths with Type A, it'd be really annoying to learn anything comparable with Type B because it's so slow :P

Deathsmiles...I think people just like Deathsmiles because it's slow and easy. They can get through five or six stages without losing and they think they've accomplished something, maybe? No idea. It looks nice, and several of the stage themes are really bangin', but I don't know if that's actually what people are grabbed by. I think lots of people are into STG for different reasons than scoring players. They see something that seems unique, and that's what makes them happy to play it, as opposed to honing taste for good design of their preferred style of shooting game. Deathsmiles is filled with **** like that.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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Medal wrote:Deathsmiles...I think people just like Deathsmiles because it's slow and easy. They can get through five or six stages without losing and they think they've accomplished something, maybe? No idea. It looks nice, and several of the stage themes are really bangin', but I don't know if that's actually what people are grabbed by. I think lots of people are into STG for different reasons than scoring players. They see something that seems unique, and that's what makes them happy to play it, as opposed to honing taste for good design of their preferred style of shooting game. Deathsmiles is filled with **** like that.
I've mentioned this before in the past: I'm of the opinion that manic shooters should also be enjoyed as an art form. I know good looks do not a good game make, but there is something with this particular subset of the shmup genre... It's not just the pretty graphics, it's the mathematical beauty in the bullet patterns, the unique styling and atmosphere, and themes which have not been done before.

Deathsmiles is a very nice game — probably not Cave's best, by any means — but it's well worth having as far as I am concerned. :)
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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idc wrote:
Medal wrote:Deathsmiles...I think people just like Deathsmiles because it's slow and easy. They can get through five or six stages without losing and they think they've accomplished something, maybe? No idea. It looks nice, and several of the stage themes are really bangin', but I don't know if that's actually what people are grabbed by. I think lots of people are into STG for different reasons than scoring players. They see something that seems unique, and that's what makes them happy to play it, as opposed to honing taste for good design of their preferred style of shooting game. Deathsmiles is filled with **** like that.
I've mentioned this before in the past: I'm of the opinion that manic shooters should also be enjoyed as an art form.
I agree :)
I know good looks do not a good game make, but there is something with this particular subset of the shmup genre... It's not just the pretty graphics, it's the mathematical beauty in the bullet patterns, the unique styling and atmosphere, and themes which have not been done before.
But this is where we disagree :)
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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idc wrote: Deathsmiles is a very nice game — probably not Cave's best, by any means — but it's well worth having as far as I am concerned. :)
Hey yeah, so how did you get on with it in the end, I know you were really into it when you first got it? Did you manage to figure out the crown reboost spots?
I think for me Deathsmiles scoring was a niggling issue because it's really not that straightforward like say, Ketsui or Espgaluda, and that's why I couldn't gel with it so well. The whole building crown values by using different shots was okay, but when it came down to also having to use the lock-on shot too for certain enemies that was pushing it for me, especially as it's easy to accidentally go into the power mode when using it. And the crown reloading was really so dependant on timing, it felt awful if I blew it. :palm:

Did you manage to get any tasty scores Ian?
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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If you play DS for fun / scores up to 200m, it's an excellent game.

All the negatives Tom has listed about scoring are the elements that give the game some depth.

It's not hard, it is pretty and it offers novices a chance to learn the same game as experts, which was a first for cave at the time. When you play Mushi you get 3 difficulty modes, but the scoring is so different in each that the skills you learn are applicable to that mode only.

In DS you can start of easy (very easy) and slowy step up the difficulty when you feel comfortable thanks to the rank select.

It's not Caves beat game and I initially hated it, but figuring out the re-boost timings and scoring hotspots was addictive as hell. It's also forgiving (I am talking low scoring here) with re-boost as you can bomb to cut the power mode time.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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I still need to borrow it off someone and really hammer it in the cab, only played it very briefly at ic09. :(
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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As Mark says, if you play DS for fun (not scoring), it's one of the most enjoyable Cave games. For me, it was extremely fun working out the scoring system and discovering the variable aspects of the game from scratch (what happens when stages are played in different orders and different difficulties) - but then again I owned it when it was less than a year old so there weren't that many spoilers on the web. Once it was discovered that scoring was so broken, most of the big guns stopped playing it.

DeathSmiles MegaBlack Label was a lot more enjoyable for me. No more milking suicide bullets or letting skulls split 1,000,000 times, Level 999 and the new extra stage :D I had to let it go as I needed the cash (and the Ketsui), but I would certainly consider re-buying it when I have money again.

Then again, I think Mushihimesama and Dodonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou aren't all that, so what do I know?

For the Progear no Arashi haters amongst you: what is it about the game you don't like? It's one of my favourites (and practically the only Cave game I can score respectably on), I love the graphics, the music, and the two-phase scoring system was great to mess around with! The joy of realising you can milk the randomly destroyable bits on stage 2, and of getting a continuous diamond stream from bullets for a couple of seconds just before the stage 1 boss :D
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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markedkiller78 wrote: It's not Caves beat game and I initially hated it, but figuring out the re-boost timings and scoring hotspots was addictive as hell. It's also forgiving (I am talking low scoring here) with re-boost as you can bomb to cut the power mode time.
I can't play on anything except LV.2 rank otherwise it's too easy and not enough scoring opportunity, but I can't play level 3's or 999's because they're stupidly tough.
Try as I might though, DS is one game where I can't ignore scoring - if you're playing for a clear only then there's not enough to it.
Chi leant me his DS MBL and I cleared the game with three of the characters in the first week or so. I had no idea about scoring as it was the first time I'd played DS properly and I really enjoyed it. Then I sat down to learn the scoring and watched some vids on the crown reload spots and the whole experience became a bit more frustrating.

Anyway, I've got the port (even thought BL is broken :( ) so when I finally get my 360 in my cab I'll go back to DS again to try to milk those crowns and see if I can find the love. :)

Chi wrote: For the Progear no Arashi haters amongst you: what is it about the game you don't like? It's one of my favourites (and practically the only Cave game I can score respectably on), I love the graphics, the music, and the two-phase scoring system was great to mess around with! The joy of realising you can milk the randomly destroyable bits on stage 2, and of getting a continuous diamond stream from bullets for a couple of seconds just before the stage 1 boss :D
Agree with this, the scoring system is soooo much fun in Progear. You're always finding new ways to cash in the big money. :D
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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I'd quite like to spend some serious time with DS (or MBL) if anyone has one for sale. It's never clicked with me, but certain other titles (Ibara) were less than immediate and they're now firm favourites.

Dangun is a lot of fun on PCB. Even survival gets tough after L3 there's such a crazy amount of stuff going on.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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skykid wrote:I can't play on anything except LV.2 rank otherwise it's too easy and not enough scoring opportunity, but I can't play level 3's or 999's because they're stupidly tough.
Rank Level 3 is fine (I play at that level), it's Death mode that is stupidly hard (after choosing 5 rank 3). I routinely play 4x rank 3 and 2x rank 2 (the two at this level are boring, but keeps from Death mode), and I'm not very good with Cave games.

I don't play it for score, particularly (I try and optimise scoring to a certain extent, but don't care too much since the scoring system is rather broken). That's probably why I still enjoy the game.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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Chi wrote:
skykid wrote:I can't play on anything except LV.2 rank otherwise it's too easy and not enough scoring opportunity, but I can't play level 3's or 999's because they're stupidly tough.
Rank Level 3 is fine (I play at that level), it's Death mode that is stupidly hard (after choosing 5 rank 3). I routinely play 4x rank 3 and 2x rank 2 (the two at this level are boring, but keeps from Death mode), and I'm not very good with Cave games.

I don't play it for score, particularly (I try and optimise scoring to a certain extent, but don't care too much since the scoring system is rather broken). That's probably why I still enjoy the game.
Sorry, my bad - I always play level 3's too, just avoid doing all the pre-stages at this to avoid the 999 rank - I can't handle that. I think I do forest stage at Rank 2 usually.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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I love Deathsmiles and MBL- I thought I would be good with the port of MBL after trading Chi's board away for DFK. But I'm looking to get it for a freaking 3rd time down the road.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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:palm:
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

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kernow wrote:I don't know why, I like Ketsui but playing it infuriates me, a stupid death and I'm FUUUUUuuuuuu, even more so than stupid deaths on Ibara.

Like a double rainbow, the game is so intense though it literally doesn't give you any breathing space, its just hammering **** on you and I'm like OH FFS GIVE ME FIVE SECONDS FUUUUUuuuu

:palm:

sigh
This is exactly why I love this game, It's so intense and requires every bit of skill I can muster. No time to ponder your days troubles once level 4 starts. Also I agree a death on kets is heartbreaking, its very hard to get back in the groove once you've died in a tight spot. :cry:

The worst cave game I have tried is progear by far. The sound of the gem collecting makes me want to murder kittens.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Medal »

markedkiller78 wrote:If you play DS for fun / scores up to 200m, it's an excellent game.

All the negatives Tom has listed about scoring are the elements that give the game some depth.

It's not hard, it is pretty and it offers novices a chance to learn the same game as experts, which was a first for cave at the time. When you play Mushi you get 3 difficulty modes, but the scoring is so different in each that the skills you learn are applicable to that mode only.

In DS you can start of easy (very easy) and slowy step up the difficulty when you feel comfortable thanks to the rank select.

It's not Caves beat game and I initially hated it, but figuring out the re-boost timings and scoring hotspots was addictive as hell. It's also forgiving (I am talking low scoring here) with re-boost as you can bomb to cut the power mode time.
I thought you were talking about me for a sec ^_- And yeah, while it gives it some depth, I just don't find it fun to begin with. Don't appreciate the depth at all.
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Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by cools »

Brief few credits on Deathsmiles tonight to make sure the boards were 100% (they are!).

First one, level-1 difficulty throughout. Die on the 2-2 boss because I'm not familiar with ship speed and get caught. Game doesn't thrill me much, exactly how it's felt before.

Subsequent ones, level-3 difficulty throughout. Die on the 1-2 boss but have a big :awe: grin all the way there. Hugely enjoyable, far more manic but completely fair with it. I have a sneaking suspicion I might end up liking it in the same way I like Futari.
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